Comments on: More On 1,2 and 1,4 Additions To Dienes https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/04/11/more-on-12-and-14-additions-to-dienes/ Thu, 14 Dec 2023 18:13:22 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.2 By: James Ashenhurst https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/04/11/more-on-12-and-14-additions-to-dienes/#comment-644818 Sat, 24 Dec 2022 10:54:48 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10655#comment-644818 In reply to Darius M..

Hi! Good question. It is true that it goes through a halonium ion, but the “1,4” addition is still possible. What would happen here is that Cl(-) would attack the “4” position, and the double bond would move over to occupy the “2,3” positions with concurrent breakage of the halonium ion to give a product where Cl is attached to both the 1 and 4 positions, similar to the example in Section 5

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By: Darius M. https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/04/11/more-on-12-and-14-additions-to-dienes/#comment-644426 Fri, 16 Dec 2022 19:32:28 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10655#comment-644426 You mention that the empirical data for additions of HBr to the 2,5-dimethyl-hexa-2,4-diene is unknown, then supplement this with the fact that addition of Cl2 leads to a 1,2 addition, promoting the ion-pair theory. My question is doesn’t Cl2 typically react through a different mechanism that the corresponding acid (HCl)? I thought that halogens will tend to form a halonium ion, which would then obviously promote the 1,2 addition, as the molecule would no longer be conjugated, having the empty p-orbital filled with a sigma bond? I’m not sure that including the data from the Cl2 addition is useful if the mechanism isn’t the same.

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By: Marc https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/04/11/more-on-12-and-14-additions-to-dienes/#comment-631709 Sat, 02 Jul 2022 00:30:18 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10655#comment-631709 So, in the case of heterolytic addition of HBr to 2,5-dimethylhexa-1,4-diene, it looks like the the ability of the intermediate to form an allylic carbocation resonance structure overrules Markovnikov, which would have dictated addition of the proton to the less substituted interior carbon of the diene. Or did I miss something? I am puzzled by this outcome, especially in light of the fact we are told that conditions that favor a kinetically-driven product seem to result in an anti-Markovnikov 1,2 product, given that suggests that the reaction never went through the allylic resonance form? Or is it that the carbocation resonance structure does form, but it doesn’t ever completely switch positions of the positive charge allowing for the 1,4-addition? Apologies, if I’m not making this clear.

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By: James Ashenhurst https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/04/11/more-on-12-and-14-additions-to-dienes/#comment-598219 Tue, 23 Feb 2021 18:00:48 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10655#comment-598219 In reply to Naveen R.

The reaction rate is related to the energy of the highest-occupied pi molecular orbital of the diene. How does the HOMO of a conjugated diene compare to the HOMO of a non-conjugated diene?

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By: Naveen R https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/04/11/more-on-12-and-14-additions-to-dienes/#comment-598128 Sat, 20 Feb 2021 17:38:55 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10655#comment-598128 The reaction rate of conjugated 1, 3-pentadiene reacting with Br2 is faster than isolated 1, 4- pentadiene. Sir can you answer this?

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By: George https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/04/11/more-on-12-and-14-additions-to-dienes/#comment-584274 Sun, 30 Aug 2020 03:22:54 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10655#comment-584274 James,

Thank you for your excellent explanation!!! You may want to add it to the main text — it clarifies things nicely.

My confusion came because in the first example of “ion pairing” it seemed as if a positive bromonium ion might merely function as a “lighthouse” guiding over any old Br- that happened to float on by to preferentially attack the carbon (C2) directly attached to bromonium ion over the more distant C4.

But in the 2,5 dimethyl hexa-2-4-diene example a ‘lighthouse’ effect seemed less tenable as C-4 would seem to carry a higher partial positive charge than C-2.

Many thanks for clearing that up!

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By: James Ashenhurst https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/04/11/more-on-12-and-14-additions-to-dienes/#comment-584031 Fri, 28 Aug 2020 15:53:49 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10655#comment-584031 In reply to George.

Hi George –
” So does ion pairing at low temp mean that the VERY SAME Br (which just lost its hydrogen and is now Br-) does not diffuse away and that it stays in the vicinity and it attacks C-2 (in other words, H and Br react almost simultaneously)?”

Yes, exactly! To clarify, the term “ion pairing” usually means “tight” ion pairing, where the opposite charges, once formed, stick together through electrostatic attraction.

[ It’s helpful to remember that these reactions don’t occur in a vacuum – they are surrounded by a shell of (usually inert) solvent, so at low temperatures where these is very little molecular motion, the solvent forms a kind of “cage” around each molecule that requires energy to break out of. One analogy is a “ball pit” that kids like to play in.]

When the Br- is formed it will be in the vicinity of a carbocation, and there will be an electrostatic attraction to this carbon. At low temperatures, “ion pairing” could occur and if the Br- doesn’t have enough kinetic energy to leave the solvent cage, it will just “rebound” to the carbocation, resulting in the 1,2 product.

At higher temperatures, Br- could diffuse away, leaving the resonance-stabilized cation. Then attack at either carbocation becomes possible, with the barrier to addition at “C4” being less due to the fact that it better stabilizes positive charge (and will have a greater partial positive charge).

Under this rationale, the 1,4 product is the “kinetic” product.

However we do *not* call the reaction of Br- with either C2 or C4 in this case, “ion pairing”, since the Br- broke out of the solvent shell.

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By: George https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/04/11/more-on-12-and-14-additions-to-dienes/#comment-583972 Fri, 28 Aug 2020 05:18:32 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10655#comment-583972 James,
For your ion pairing mechanism could you clarify something about the term? For the first example of it, where a bromonium ion forms, I can understand why pairing lead to attack at C-2.

However, for 2,5 dimethyl hexa-2-4-diene I get confused. First you get protonation on C1 by HBr. So does ion pairing at low temp mean that the VERY SAME Br (which just lost its hydrogen and is now Br-) does not diffuse away and that it stays in the vicinity and it attacks C-2 (in other words, H and Br react almost simultaneously)?

Because if Br- did have time to diffuse away, then I’d think resonance would quickly kick in, and since C4 has relatively more positive charge (than C2) that should attract the next Br- ion that floats on by (by “ion pairing”)??? So C4 would react by “ion pairing.”

Thanks!

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By: James Ashenhurst https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/04/11/more-on-12-and-14-additions-to-dienes/#comment-579802 Fri, 01 May 2020 04:11:48 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10655#comment-579802 In reply to Harshvardhan.

No. Protonation at C2 or C3 would result in a non resonance-stabilized carbocation. Much higher activation energy.

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By: Harshvardhan https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/04/11/more-on-12-and-14-additions-to-dienes/#comment-579740 Wed, 29 Apr 2020 12:15:16 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10655#comment-579740 Hi there,
I wanted to know whether in #3 example protonation will occur at C2 since CH3 has a tendency to donate electrons thus making C1 and C3 potential sites for carbocation and C2 and C4 sites for electrophilic addition. Overall I find your content very informative and helpful,thanks!

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